(Passive) Corpse Soil
Heal for 1.5% maximum health of each non-structure that dies nearby
(Passive) Thornmail
Every 16 seconds, gain 50 Physical Armor against the next enemy Hero Basic Attack, reducing the damage taken by 50%
Stores up to 3 charges. Damaging enemies with Thorn Host's passive reduces cooldown by 3 seconds
(Q) Nullifying Bark
While any enemy hero is affected by Feeding Vines, gain 20 Spell Armor
(W) Bloodthirsty Sickles
(!)[Quest] Each enemy hero hit by Rip Apart increases its middle area damage increase by 2%, up to 50%
Reward: After hitting 25 enemy heros, increase base damage of Rip Apart by 50
(Q) Invigorate
Each enemy affected by Feeding Vines increases all healing recived by 10%
(Q) Seeker Vines
Increse Feeding Vines range by 20%
(Q) Feed on Stamina
Gain 10% movement speed for each enemy hero affected by Feeding Vines
(D) Cursed Blessing
Each stack of Nightshade's Curse grants 8 maximum health
(W) Backswing
Rip Apart swings second time but with no middle area damage bonus
(E) Crippling Thorns
Enemies damaged by Thorn Host have their movement speed slowed by 20% for 1 second
(D) Royal Execution
Increase the number of Nightshaed's Curse stacks granted by takedowns by 3
(D) Self Consume
Dying grants 15 stacks of Nightshade's Curse
(W) Flesh Connoisseur
Each enemy hero damaged with Rip Apart grants 1 stack of Nightshade's Curse
(Q/E) Parasitic Symbiosis
Damaging enemies rooted by Thorn Host with Feeding Vines, increases the duration of root to 2 seconds
Enemies rooted by Thorn Host take 25% more damage from Feeding Vines for 5 seconds
(W) Cut Out the Weeds
Damaging enemy hero with Rip Apart reduces its cooldown by 0.5 second, increased to 1 second for middle area
(E) Lethel Burst
Rooting eneny heros with Thorn Host deals additional 8% maximum health damage after the root expires
Thorn Host's passive deals additional 1% maximum health damage to heroes
(R1) Fate Accepted
Shambler's Fate grants 25% incresed damage and Unstoppable while at or below 40% of maximum health
(R2) Never Sated
Passive: If enemy hero is affected by Feeding Vines for 3 seconds, cast Feed the Garden on them. This effect can only occur once every 45 seconds per hero
(D) Aggressive Rebirth
Nightshade's Curse revives after 2 seconds in selected area within huge range around the allied Core. Place of revival is telegraphed to all player that have vision over selected area
Range: 60
(Passive) Seeds of Vengence
Upon dying, 3 shamblers erupts from location of Vengevines and run at nearest enemy heros for 4 seconds. When they reach the target or expire, they explode into salvo of thorny vines dealing 235 damage (+4% per level) in small area to all enemies and rooting them for 0.75 second. This effect has 120 seconds cooldown
Health 800
Sight radius 9.0
Movement speed 6
Unit radius 0.625
Area of Effect: Circle
Radius: 3
Heroes of the Storm Build Guides
1)Is it intentional that his Mana and Mana Regen scale differently from all other characters?
2)Does "Max Range after connecting" of [Feeding Vines] means the Active Range from Vengevines? Is it like an improved version of Leoric's [Drain Hope] (W)?
3)You wrote the width of [Feeding Vines], but what about the height?
4)Is the healing from [Feeding Vines] considered lifesteal?
5)[Rip Apart] is overtuned in terms of both damage and cooldown. Dealing 200+ damage in AOE from a dash every 4 seconds is insane.
6)Is [Thorn Host] not just an improved version of Arthas's [Howling Blast] (W)?
7)Wait, what is the cast range of [Thron Host]? It is not global, is it?
8)[Nightshade's Curse] is poorly designed. It forces you to farm Minions for most of the match.
9)Where does [Nightshade's Curse] revive you? If it is at your death location, then it needs an overhaul, as it is not only frustrating to play against due to doubling your life, but can also heavily backfire for your team.
10)[Shambler's Fate] is poorly designed. It steals EXP from your enemies, punishes them for trying to kill you, and can be used last minute to still get the benefit.
I am not sure what niche this character is supposed to fill, but anyway, it is time for his talents:
1)What is the radius of [Corpse Soil] exactly?
2)[Thornmail], like every Block talent, is poorly designed. It either does nothing or does too much.
3)Does [Seeker Vines] increase both cast range and active range?
4)[Cursed Blessing] is both weak and only aggravates the problem with stacking this ability.
5)[Backswing] allows you to clear Minions and Mercenaries faster than Hogger. This is not okay.
6)[Self Consume] is extremely poorly designed. Talents that reward dying are simply unhealthy for the game.
7)[Seeds of Vengence], like [Self Consume], rewards you for dying.
This concept needs a lot of work. I do have a lot of suggestions:
1)Starting with the elephant in the room, [Nightshade's Curse] is impossible to balance. Here is the replacement:
Cursed Rebirth (D)
Cooldown: 180 seconds
Activate to immediately respawn. Can only be used while dead.
Cursed Seed (New Active 1)
Place a cursed seed near an allied Fort, Keep, Core, or Hall of Storms. Reactivate to relocate it. Global cast range. Can be used while dead.
Passive: Unlike other Heroes, Vengevines respawns from the cursed seed, removing it afterwards.
Cursed Rebirth keeps the flavor of being able to respawn at will and removes the constant need to farm.
Cursed Seed does not require any cast time or investment, and the seed cannot be interacted with, but can be seen by the enemy team while in sight.
Worth noting is that the cursed seed is automatically placed at the Hall of Storms when the match starts.
2)Increase the cooldown of [Rip Apart] to 8 seconds, its Mana cost to 40, and decrease its damage to 200.
3)Switch [Rip Apart] with [Thorn Host]. It feels more natural to have the movement ability on the (E) button.
4)Remove the passive effect of [Thorn Host]. It feels out of place and creates too many problems in the long run.
5)Increase the damage of [Thorn Host] to 160, but decrease the Root duration to 1 second.
6)Rename [Thorn Host] to [Thorned Roots] to make the name match the effect.
7)Replace [Shambler's Fate] with this:
Cloud of Decay (R)
Mana: 60
Cooldown: 65 seconds
Radius: 6
Vengevines casts for 1 second to release a toxic cloud at his current location. Lasts 5 seconds. Interrupting the cast refunds Mana and cooldown.
While within the cloud, both enemies and Vengevines take 120 damage per second, but Vengevines also gains 30% Movement Speed and Unstoppable.
I understand that this is an entirely different ability, but I simply do not see the way to make [Shambler's Fate] not problematic, which is why I went this way.
Yeah, I get that. I wrote background with and idea of HOTS story and lore expanding in time. I wanted it to be a pointer towards Garden of Terror and Nightshade's descent into madness that could be a subject of a story later
No. To be honest I throwed there a number from my previous concept and forgot to adjust it
Yes. 6.5 is a range of Feeding Vines [Q] projectile only. 7.5 is its area that enemies need to leave to actualy break the effect.
[Drain Hope] has some different aplications. Yes, it is main sustain tool for Leoric, but it focuses on presuring high health heroes and it is always a single target ability. Feeding Vines [Q] play around connecting and draining multipile enemies for flat, not % health, damage and are essentialy enabling one of your ultimate to be even used [Feed the Garden] [R2]
Can you elaborate? I can't see such parameter there
Yes
I had second thoughts about it aswell. After doing math it came out that it does over 1k burst on level 20 in its sweet spot if correct talents were picked. Im not even including CDR from [Cut Out the Weeds] talent. I agree on that one absolutly. One remark only. The dash is more like side step. Its not a mobility tool but rather little help in reaching targets
We can say it is improved Howling Blast. Designing the kit I needed one ability that would pin enemies down to helps connecting Feeding Vines [Q] to at liest one target. I had a couple of ideas, like throwing seeds that root when enemies step on them but I landed on simplier idea in the end. Could be reworked if we need it to be distinct
I guess you checked concept right after I made it public. I corrected it shortly after. Range is 7.5
Agree and disagree.
The bad part is that stacking it can be boring and make players to be late for every teamfight becouse "they need to satck passive"
The good part is that stacking it as a side laner should't be as big of a deal. Constant brawling also is encouraged through getting stacks for takedowns.
I'll also point that we have such mechanic in the game already. Diablo does very similar thing and I think its not a bad passive.
I like your design more tho but I'll get to it later
My bad for not precising. You revive at the Altar
I realy want this ultimate to feel like "Do or Die" button. Yet I can't disagree on overdesigning it. EXP steal and after death effect were suppose to fit with constant rebirth theme and taking advantage of it. I have an idea to mix it with your proposed design to make it more healthy
Good question. My bad. I'll fix it
I have no strong feeling towards this talent. The idea of Level 1 talents was to have a choice to adjust your defences properly if needed via more sustain or right type of armor. Do you have any idea for fixing Physical Armor?
Yes. Didn't precise it beacouse it affects all parameters by default
This talent was attempt to get something more then revival from your passive. I know it's not great. But since we talk about redesigning passive as a whole I think problem will solve itself here
It's an ability problem, not talent problem. Adjusting [Rip Apart] [W] will probably fix it
Same case as [Cursed Blessing]. Redesinging passive will force me to erase this talent
I can't see a problem here actualy. We have such mechanics in game. ETC and Diablo, both have level 20 talents that rewards them for dying and i can't see complaints about them. Maybe some about ETC, becouse it's pretty much instant Mosh Pit after he dies, but Diablo's Apocalypse is well telegraphed and gives time to react. I'd leave this talent as it is. Shamblers are well telegraphed and need to reach targets. Also they don't explode after being killed
I was more so talking about its mechanical aspect. I wanted to know if the active range is centered around Vengevines or the target hit.
Projectiles have both width and height to determine their hitbox. For example, Muradin's [Storm Bolt] (Q) has 1.25 width and 2 height, making the hitbox 1.25x2.
Are you saying that it is not considered a movement ability?
Speaking of movement, how fast is the dash exactly? For example, Valla's [Vault] (E) has a missile speed of 14.
Diablo stacks it much faster. He does not need to actively farm lanes.
[Death Metal] is actually an incredibly toxic talent.
[Dying Breath] is tied to [Apocalypse] and provides value outside of dying.
It is up to you. I just think it would be rarely picked.
This is actually really bad. They would get killed before they reach anyone most of the time.
It is quite different from Murky. Sure, it shares the idea of placing your respawn point, but it does not reduce your death timer and can only be placed at the aforementioned Structures. It cannot be used offensively.
That works too.
It makes you deal damage when you might not want to, as the enemies will trigger it way more often than you do, causing you to, for example, wake up enemies from Sleep. It also feels out of place because it does not synergize with the rest of the kit.
Mana: 50
Cooldown: 0.5 second
Radius: 6
Toggle: Vengevines gains 30% movement speed, ignores unit collision and starts decomposing itself, losing 6% of its maximum health every second. While this ability is active cloud of toxic gas surrounds Vengevines. While within the cloud enemies take 120 damage per second. Each time an enemy hero is damaged by Cloud of Decay, reduce cooldown of Cursed Rebirth by 0.5 second. After activation you can deactivate this ability after 5 seconds. Vengevines can die from damage from this ability
While this iteration fixes the most major flaws, now there is an issue of evaluating if the damage taken is worth the movement speed bonus and damage dealt. This is why I went with making it an area denial.
Can you tell me what each talent tier is supposed to add? Do you want them to be strictly focused on one thing?
But the more scenarios I imagine the more I'm convinced it's actualy a anti-melee and anti-dive design.
The kit feels like chasing down backline heroes is a wishful thinking but jumping on enemies that try to dive your bacline is very potent. With melee heroes being easier to target with [Feeding Vines] [Q] and [Rip Apart] [W], short root and a passive on [Thorn Host] [E], punishing heroes that comes in your range seems very likely option. Also both ultimates ruin atempts to escape or disengage. [Shambler's Fate] [R1] (or Cloud of Decay actualy) helping to catch up with enemeis that try to get away from danger zone, and [Feed the Garden] [R2] literaly denying that atempt in first place
Cooldown: 180 seconds
Activate to immediately respawn. Can only be used while dead.
Cursed Seed (New Active 1)
Place a cursed seed near an allied Fort, Keep, Core, or Hall of Storms. Reactivate to relocate it. Global cast range. Can be used while dead.
Passive: Unlike other Heroes, Vengevines respawns from the cursed seed, removing it afterwards.
Cursed Rebirth keeps the flavor of being able to respawn at will and removes the constant need to farm.
Cursed Seed does not require any cast time or investment, and the seed cannot be interacted with, but can be seen by the enemy team while in sight.
Worth noting is that the cursed seed is automatically placed at the Hall of Storms when the match starts.
Like I said above I like this design better. One thing that i want to avoid is making another Murky. I could agree on [Cursed Seed] as a level 20 talent. The rest is cool
How about adjusting damage to 150, cooldown to 6 secondsa and leave mana cost on 30? It's the only relyable waveclear and main damage tool of this hero so I'd rather make it weaker but accesable more often
Sure. Reasonable request
6)Rename [Thorn Host] to [Thorned Roots] to make the name match the effect.
What problems do you have in mind? This passive is there for better trading with melee heroes and especialy becouse of [Shambler's Fate] [R1] procing it at 100% efficiency. I could decrese damage or add more cooldown but I like this passive there
Ok. No problem
Cloud of Decay (R)
Mana: 60
Cooldown: 65 seconds
Radius: 6
Vengevines casts for 1 second to release a toxic cloud at his current location. Lasts 5 seconds. Interrupting the cast refunds Mana and cooldown.
While within the cloud, both enemies and Vengevines take 120 damage per second, but Vengevines also gains 30% Movement Speed and Unstoppable.
So my proposition to for redesign would be:
Cloud of Decay (R1)
Mana: 50
Cooldown: 0.5 second
Radius: 6
Toggle: Vengevines gains 30% movement speed, ignores unit collision and starts decomposing itself, losing 6% of its maximum health every second. While this ability is active cloud of toxic gas surrounds Vengevines. While within the cloud enemies take 120 damage per second. Each time an enemy hero is damaged by Cloud of Decay, reduce cooldown of Cursed Rebirth by 0.5 second. After activation you can deactivate this ability after 5 seconds. Vengevines can die from damage from this ability
It strips EXP denial and punishment for killing Vengevines, but still makes it a suicidal threat to enemy team and interacts with rebirth mechanic. Also adding a gap between activating and deactivating forces players to make a good judgments and cant be just poped to run away from enemies due to possibility of dying from it if you're below 30% of health