For sure, mate.

Thought-provoking conversation is always useful. I went through my talents section to revamp it since I hadn't done that in a long time, working through the rest as I find time.

Goodie goodie gumpdrops!

Yep, that's my take on it! Currently reworking parts of my guide, so I think I'll add these kinds of comments to it. Nice chatting, as always, bro!

I mean, even in conjunction with other Heroes' slows, you move relatively faster than the enemy team at all times with Evasive Fire.

So, like, with Evasive Fire, you can very easily pop enough Qs to move 30% faster. This means you're moving 30% faster than the entire enemy team, or, relatively speaking, they are all moving 30% slower than you.

That's my take on it. It's only good when your team can catch up to your opponents, so yeah, I can see it being decent with someone like Arthas who has no actual engage, but relies on roots/slows. Seems pretty situational though.

Definitely! Well deserved!

Now that's a number I didn't take into account. Mana costs. I'll have to think about that. I think you're right that Lost Soul does actually end up reducing your sustain (at least in lane at low levels), since you end up using so much more mana. With the Wind, of course, doesn't have that problem at all. I'll have to ponder how to take it into account in the math...but as you say, there are actually so many variables that it's already pretty difficult.

Yeah, you're definitely right that other heroes' slows are more impactful. That build is therefore most effective alongside those heroes. I have the most fun with it in a team of Arthas, Jaina, Thrall or Valla, Rehgar, and Sylvanas--the enemies basically can't move! But besides that, it's definitely still debateable how much of an impact it has pushing with golems/bosses. Look forward to hearing what you decide after some more testing. I'm honestly still torn sometimes.

Thanks for the kind words! I'll look at your guide to check the numbers you found for the Tier 1 Talent Selections. As I said before, Lost Soul was my first choice when Sylvanas first came out but everyone said it was hardly anything and not worth it and that Barbed Shot was better at pushing so it didn't make any difference. While I personally like playing with With the Wind (I am an assassin main after all), I still see more merit in Lost Soul than Barbed Shot.

Barbed Shot really has to be supported by Splinter Shot to be as good.

For Overwhelming Affliction, I will test it some more but I just don't see the impact, at least as of yet. Jaina/Valla have similar, stronger, and just as easily applied AoE slows and I think it's kind of 'eh' as a talent choice when you could just play them.

BUT, I'll test it some more.

I did find a lot of application for Paralysis, as it allows for easily taking out things like Bruiser Camps without taking damage, which is pretty cool. It makes microing a lot easier and lowers the potential for player-error when doing things like diving Keeps and not managing your AAs correctly. Just letting the Black Arrows trait fall off a Keep can get someone killed with that 60% slow or whatever it is.

EDIT: Checked those numbers. It's a bit weird to estimate since so many variables could occur, but I agree with the inherent weakness of Barbed Shot being automatically targeted, and, in fact, is your main trading tool other than poking with Shadow Dagger so most times you would want to use it on the enemy Hero(es).

So, numbers or no numbers, I'd have to agree Lost Soul is superior in basically every way except Mana Costs.

@Severage -

Couple of things: First, no idea what the hell is with your guide not showing properly. I'm reworking my guide right now, and I think I'm just going to cite yours for a couple of things to get people over here. It's as good if not better than mine is (as are most of your guides, bro!).

Second, partially because of our useful discussions, I've started the labor of actually estimating the math behind talent choices. So far, I've gotten through what I think is the most debated choice: Barbed Shot vs. With the Wind vs. Lost Soul. Check out my guide for the details, but the quick summary is that Barbed Shot is next to useless while Lost Soul is the clear winner IF your team capitalizes on Cold Embrace and IF you don't die frequently. If either of those conditions aren't true (say, during a solo-queue...), With the Wind is a valid option. I know that's what we kind of agreed on in conversation, but it's nice to see the numbers on it. I'll be doing the numbers for other talent choices in coming weeks, so definitely let me know what you think.

Third, on the talents we're discussing above, I know what you mean. I would say that the combo is most effective on Haunted Mines, and also really shines on Tomb of the Spider Queen when the boss is there, too. I find that the spiders' wave is easier to dodge in general than the golems'/bosses' slam--so Overwhelming Affliction's slow is most effective right before those attacks occur. Also, since Shadow Dagger only gives a team-wide 5% slow, you'll also want to make the rare move of attacking with Haunting Wave to apply another 5%--and maybe even throwing Wailing Arrow in for a total of 15%. Try it out and see if it suddenly feels more useful.

Also, it should be noted that this combo is way more effective in two additional moments: (1) with teammates that also slow--Jaina, Arthas, Valla with Frost Shot, or Thrall with Earthquake, for instance; or (2) when your team has to land a bunch of skillshots so that even a 5% slow makes a huge difference. Think Snipe and Precision Shot, Frostbolt and Blizzard, Feral Spirit, Storm Bolt, or Gravity Lapse and Flamestrike (I'm probably missing a ton). If you use Overwhelming Affliction and Paralysis, ask your teammates if they find it easier to land their own skills. Of course, if you're playing AGAINST those combos, better to take Evasive Fire, since Sylvanas is a natural target and better at dodging that way. At least, that's my logic when choosing which movement ability to take. Let me know how it pans out if you test some more.

Finally, yeah Unstable Poison turns out to be awesome, and Paralysis is surprisingly useful with it--even to the point that I often consider it over Envenom even when I'm not planning on taking Overwhelming Affliction. Envenom is hard to get off usefully a lot of the time, but doubling the time you lock down enemy minions and structures has a ton of value. It's not the kind of value people see in the statistics and experience you contribute, so people overlook it, but I really do think those to talents FEEL great when you're using them. I'm less convinced myself of Overwhelming Affliction, but the other two really can change the momentum of a game. And we all know the power of the Big Mo!

@Jaeris -

Alright so I tried out OA, Paralysis, and Unstable Poison in Tomb of the Spider Queen in a QM today. Granted it was only 1 game, but I haven't gotten Tomb again yet.

I really don't feel like Overwhelming Affliction does much for me. I felt a huge impact from Unstable Poison, and I even liked having Paralysis more than I thought I would, but I didn't feel the impact of the slow hardly at all.

Most of the enemy team had speed-ups or jumps that counter-acted it, and I'd need another 10 Q charges to kite someone effectively with it (Or at least that's how I felt). I'll try it in another game as 1 game isn't a very good sample size for science, but at least my first impressions were that it was overall a low-impact talent.

TL;DR I enjoyed Unstable Poison + Paralysis a lot more than I thought I would, and it's obvious why so many pick Unstable Poison (Even I recommend it on Tomb), and really felt it was very impactful. The slow felt weak.

Thanks for the thoughts Jaeris, I didn't know my guide wasn't showing up in top Sylvanas guides, I wonder why that is.

I'll be completely honest with you, I've never actually used the combination of Unstable Posion, Overwhelming Affliction and Paralysis in a game. I read about the combination but it seemed like an over-investment of talents I wouldn't ordinarily pick (Other than Unstable Poison, perhaps) to get a specific interaction to happen.

Compare to someone like Valla who does almost the same thing with just Frost Shot.

Next time I'm in QM on Tomb of the Spider Queen I'll give it a whirl though.

So just thought I'd add my two cents. I just found this guide, despite having written a Sylvanas guide myself. For some reason, it doesn't consistently show up in the top Sylvanas guides. You should look into that, Severage, since I definitely think this is the best or second-best Sylvanas guide out there (next to my own, of course!). Realistically, anyone learning Sylvanas would be well-suited by reading this guide and mine, and choosing between them or combining them.

They both also have complimentary playstyle information. I make a big deal out of Sylvanas not being an "assassin," but what I mean is that she's not a good source of burst damage. Our two guides are the only ones that acknowledge this fact and build around it. (And neither of us want the classic "laning/split-pushing" specialist.)

The biggest differences (which Severage and I just debating in comments on my guide) are probably the tier 1 and tier 3 talents--I'd advocate taking Lost Soul and one of three talents besides Shade Form depending on the situation (either Remoresless, Life Drain, or Paralysis). All in all, though, Severage makes a good case for Withering Fire and Shade Form, and I honestly think the biggest difference is what the guides focus on: in Solo-queue, I'd consider going with this guide; my guide is focused more on 5-stack, team play.

The only other comment/quibble I'd make that I think Overwhelming Affliction and Paralysis is a worthwhile combo to consider in the right situation. With the right team or on the right map (Haunting Mines and Tomb of the Spider Queen), causing a team-wide slow can be way more effective than a self-speedboost in Evaisve Fire. It also has amazing synergy with Unstable Poison on those maps. Only other thing I'd say this guide is missing, so great job on the comprehensive and useful guide, Sev!

Thank you Queen! :)

I love what you did! Looks very professional! Keep it going!